German Chancellor Scholz on NATO's future, supporting Ukraine and working with Biden (2024)

The NATO summit in Washington is wrapping up after a week of sustaining and expanding support for Ukraine. Amna Nawaz spoke with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz about how NATO leaders are preparing to tackle some of the biggest geopolitical challenges facing the world, what he thinks about President Biden and the prospect of a return to power by Donald Trump.

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• Amna Nawaz:

  Today is the final day of the NATO Summit here in Washington.

  At the top of the agenda this week, sustaining and expanding support for Ukraine. Not on the official agenda, concerns about the U.S. election and its potential outcomes.

  Earlier today, I spoke exclusively with Chancellor Olaf Scholz of Germany to discuss how NATO leaders are preparing to tackle some of the biggest geopolitical challenges facing the world, what he thinks about his counterpart President Biden, and the prospect of a return to power by Donald Trump.

  Chancellor Scholz, welcome to the "News Hour." Thank you for being here.

• Olaf Scholz, German Chancellor:

  Hello.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Let's begin with Ukraine, which is clearly top of the NATO Summit agenda while you're here. You and others resisted language in the communique to extend Ukraine an invitation to join NATO.

  Can you explain to us why that was? Are you worried that that would send Russia a signal of some kind of escalation?

• Olaf Scholz:

  No, it's not about this.

  We are supporting Ukraine. As you know, Germany is the second biggest donor of also military support to Ukraine after the United States. And we will continue to be strong in our support for Ukraine.

  And during the war, no one expects Ukraine to enter NATO. It is now that we do what we can say today, and this is the language which we worked on in Vilnius, which was the right way of saying that there is a path to NATO for Ukraine, and it is irreversible, as we say today. And I think this is the right message.

• Amna Nawaz:

  You know, of course, Russia is watching with great interest the messages from the summit.

  Dmitry Medvedev just tweeted this morning saying — or commenting on this language about the irreversible path of Ukraine. And he wrote this — quote — "For Russia, two possible ways of how this path ends are acceptable. Either Ukraine disappears or NATO does, still better, both."

  What's your reaction to that?

• Olaf Scholz:

  Oh, the comments of Medvedev are becoming more and more strange, to be very honest, but, in a way, it shows that our language is absolutely clear.

  And so it's good to hear this after we have talked in the beginning about the language of the NATO meeting here. It's a strong message about the irreversible path, and it's the right thing to do.

• Amna Nawaz:

  If the goal continues to be to get Ukraine everything that it needs to win this war, then, there is the question of why you haven't yet authorized sending the Taurus missiles, those long-range German cruise missiles, because the U.S. has sent their versions in the ATACMS. The U.K. has sent their version.

  So why isn't Germany sending yours?

• Olaf Scholz:

  As I already said, Germany is the second biggest supporter of Ukraine. Also, when it comes to weapons, we delivered everything which is important for air defense, three Patriot systems, the biggest number from all countries, and we invite many others to do more.

  We have delivered howitzers and tanks, and we continue to do so. So this is our way of doing support. And our decision is that we will not deliver weapons which have a long range and where we do not have enough control about what will happen, if they will be used at aims that are far away.

• Amna Nawaz:

  But I take that to mean, just to put a clear point on this, you would not trust Ukraine not to use those longer-range weapons in a way that you fear could escalate the conflict?

• Olaf Scholz:

  I trust them, and we are working together intensely, and we took all the necessary decisions for Ukraine that they could defend the country, also together with the United States, giving them the chance to be more effective in defending their own country, so that they can go against Russian troops.

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• Amna Nawaz:

  We know that you and the other NATO allies and the rest of the world are watching this upcoming U.S. election with great interest.

  It was last month you said that you believe President Biden is likely to win a second term. You have said this week that you don't have any concerns about his health, as other folks have raised questions. We have — since that debate performance, though, we have seen the biggest shift in polls here in the U.S. away from him and towards former President Trump that we have seen to date.

  Do you still believe that he is likely to win?

• Olaf Scholz:

  I'm not someone that is able to say how will be the outcome of American elections.

  But I think it would be a big mistake to underestimate the president. He is successful in doing the necessary things, for instance, in organizing the NATO alliance. And his leadership was very important in the last years and months, and also preparing this very meeting here in Washington. And he is also a successful campaigner.

  So I think it is the American people that will take a decision. And I just can tell you, from my perspective, as someone that is speaking with Biden, he is very focused, and he is very intensely doing what the president of the United States has to do for leading the alliance.

• Amna Nawaz:

  You have been in a sort of unique position this week. You have been meeting with him. You're watching him work.

  Have you seen any moments at all in your latest interactions with him that tell you in any way he is not up to another four years?

• Olaf Scholz:

  No.

• Amna Nawaz:

  And can I also ask, did you watch the debate that has created so many headlines here?

• Olaf Scholz:

  Yes, I did.

• Amna Nawaz:

  You did?

• Olaf Scholz:

  To be honest, everyone in Europe is very much interested in the politics within the United States, because the United States are the strongest superpower in the world. And it's our most important ally.

  So we are trying to understand what goes on.

• Amna Nawaz:

  And, as you watched it, nothing that you saw gave you any concern or reason for pause?

• Olaf Scholz:

  I think that he made his points, and he argued why it is necessary to work on a good cooperation globally with our friends and allies of democracy — democratic states. And he was very clear and focused on questions of national politics.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Mr. Biden, as you mentioned, has been a strong and a vocal defender of NATO, of its role in the world.

  How much do you think is at stake for the alliance in this upcoming U.S. election?

• Olaf Scholz:

  The alliance is important for the security of the United States, of Canada, and all — of all the European states on the other side of the Atlantic.

  I think it is necessary that we understand that, though there might be differences between the states joining the alliance, it is not about the basic principles of how to run a country and about democracy, as I said.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Under a potential second Trump presidency, however, does your view on that change?

  I mean, this is someone who sent mixed messages on the alliance. He's previously called it obsolete. He's explicitly warned that the U.S. would not step in to defend NATO allies who haven't met that 2 percent of GDP defense spending target. What happens to NATO under a President Trump?

• Olaf Scholz:

  I met during all the years many people from the Congress, bipartisan, from all parties.

  I will say that there is constantly a clear understanding of both parties, that NATO is in the interest of the United States. And this commitment is very strong. So I think that this is how American politicians who are in the security community think about this question, and I'm sure that this will continue for the next decades.

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• Amna Nawaz:

  Do you believe Mr. Trump shares that view of NATO's importance?

• Olaf Scholz:

  In the end, this was the experience we had during the last presidency of Trump. But it is nothing where I would speculate about.

  I'm just knowing that Republicans and Democrats are very clear in this question.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Have you yourself been in touch directly with former President Trump?

• Olaf Scholz:

  I met him when he was president.

• Amna Nawaz:

  And not since then? That's a no?

• Olaf Scholz:

  I met him when he was president…

• Amna Nawaz:

  OK.

• Olaf Scholz:

  … as a mayor and as a finance minister and vice chancellor at that time when my predecessor was visiting together, going together with me to these meetings of G7 and G20.

• Amna Nawaz:

  But not since he left office here in the U.S.?

• Olaf Scholz:

  No.

• Amna Nawaz:

  I do want to ask you about the other major war. And that is, of course, Israel's war in Gaza.

  Your foreign minister recently just condemned Israel's strikes this week that were at both tent areas for displaced Palestinians outside a school in Southern Gaza. Those were called unacceptable by your foreign minister. And she said that the repeated attacks on schools by the Israeli army must stop.

  The question is, how do you get them to stop?

• Olaf Scholz:

  We have a clear understanding of what about the situation. The first is that, after the brutal attack of Hamas against Israeli citizens, Israel has the right to defend itself against Hamas.

  And right from the beginning, we were very clear, saying that this has consequences for the way of doing this war against Hamas, reducing the civilian casualties. We discussed about the need for humanitarian aid to get to Gaza. We discussed about the question of West Bank and that there should be not an enlargement of settlements and that there should be no attacks against Palestinian civilians in the West Bank.

  We were very clear on the perspective, and we are clear that there must be a two-state solution which gives the chance for Israel and a Palestinian state consisting of West Bank and Gaza to live peacefully together.

• Amna Nawaz:

  At the same time, Chancellor, there have been expansions of the settlements in the West Bank, and there have been tens of thousands of civilians killed. So, what can be done at this point?

• Olaf Scholz:

  We have to be clear.

  And, as friends of Israel, we have to be especially clear. And this is what we do, the United States do, as far as I see it, and many others also. So that's what we can do.

• Amna Nawaz:

  I'd like to ask you also about our colleague in journalism from The Wall Street Journal Evan Gershkovich, who is being held in Russia.

  There's a convicted Russian assassin by the name of Vadim Krasikov who remains jailed in Germany. And there were reports that you were willing to trade him for Evan and for Alexei Navalny when he was alive, before he ended up dying in a Russian prison.

  Can you confirm those reports? Were you willing to make that trade?

• Olaf Scholz:

  You don't really expect that I will be very clear on questions like this.

  We are very active to help those who are imprisoned in Russia. And this is one — this is an activity we are doing together with others. And, yes, that's what I will say here.

• Amna Nawaz:

  I guess the question is relevant today because there remain so many Westerners and Americans jailed in Russia.

  If it was a possibility to trade someone like Krasikov before, could there be a deal on the table to trade now for Evan Gershkovich and Paul Whelan, who's also still in Russia?

• Olaf Scholz:

  As I said, there are aspects of international politics which I — have to be done in a very pragmatic way and without debating them.

  And this is what we — what you should have in mind. So we try to get prisoners out, but it's very difficult. And it's nothing for speculating about this.

• Amna Nawaz:

  But a trade is potentially one way these men could be freed; is that fair to say?

• Olaf Scholz:

  It's not fair to say, because you're trying to get an answer from me, where I said I won't give you an answer.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Fair enough.

  Chancellor, I want to ask you about issues back home in Germany and across Europe. The rest of the world has been watching recent elections there with great interest as well.

  You expressed some relief that the far right in France did not prevail in their recent elections. Germany is, of course, reckoning with its own rise in a far right party in the Alternative for Germany Party. How worried are you about the rise of those far right forces in Germany?

• Olaf Scholz:

  I'm worried about the rise of far right forces all over the world, and especially in many of the rich countries.

  We have to understand why this is happening. We have always to understand that the big majority of people is not agreeing with them in all these countries. And — but we have to develop a strategy which is making it more sure that the support for them will decrease.

  But it is a time where we have to organize that the change will be successful, not just on an abstract perspective, but also if we look at the individual perspective of people who look at themselves or those who are like them.

• Amna Nawaz:

  I found it interesting, in reaction to the success of some of those far right parties in recent European elections, you called it a decisive turning point in politics, and you attributed much of that to really a public loss of trust in mainstream politics.

  So how do you and other leaders facing this similar challenge, how do you get that trust back?

• Olaf Scholz:

  We are living in times where there is a lot of insecurity.

  So, hope and the view that there is a good perspective for everyone is key for fighting against these right populist parties. I think we have to go away from this idea of a zero sum game. We have to be more optimistic about the future. This is the basis for getting our societies together and for social coherence, which I think is important.

• Amna Nawaz:

  German Chancellor Olaf Scholz, thank you so much for your time, for being here today. Really appreciate it.

• Olaf Scholz:

  Thank you.

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